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The Last Jedi Discussion Thread--SPOILERS AHEAD

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The Last Jedi Discussion Thread--SPOILERS AHEAD

Postby packerbacker180 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:38 pm

I jus saw it today. I figured we needed some place to talk about it since I'm sure others have seen it as well. I need to digest it more but came out of the theatre having mostly enjoyed it.

PLEASE BE AWARE IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN IT THERE WILL PROBABLY BE SPOILERS AHEAD...

I don't want every post to be with covered spoilers so feel free to talk openly.
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Re: The Last Jedi Discussion Thread--SPOILERS AHEAD

Postby Idiot Savant » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:14 am

Oh God, where do I begin? SPOILER CITY AHEAD

I am a Star Wars fan through and through...but for as many possibilities that this movie had, I was really let down.

Were there really good and beautiful imagery, designs? Yes, it felt like a Star Wars movie should; but that’s where the comparisons stop.

Force Awakens gave us the “hope” that all will be answered and made accountable; that didn’t happen. Instead all we got is (counting both new movies) 5 hours of old people walking around. I had such hopes for the new directors to take us on their journeys in new and exciting ways (and in some cases this is true) but when it comes to the characters that made ALL these movies possible, giant let down. They played these movies way too safe.

Last Jedi (in my opinion) was a joke. Mark Hammil even said that “this isn’t my Luke”. I can’t see Luke “hiding” like Obi-Wan and Yoda did; the Luke I grew up with would’ve stayed true. He would’ve been pissed, sure; but he would stay the course. He would’ve at least try to train Leia in the last 30 years to see her potential as a Jedi; he would’ve been more patient with Ben Solo; he would keep trying and not give up.

Casino planet storyline? Not needed.
Finn’s new love story? Not needed.
Being betrayed by a guy we just met? Did that in Empire; not needed.
Hot headed subterfuge? Not needed.
Evil version of B.B.-8? Useless.
Bringing back Phasma for this? She’d be better off staying in that trash compactor.

I think if they just focused on the main story arc, this would’ve been a lot better, but they HAD to include extra that ended up not working.

Then to see Leia all of a sudden pull **** out of her ass, just to end up doing NOTHING with that kind of power is such an insult to her and the fans. When that scene happened I actually thought some badass Jedi **** is gonna come down (towards the end) and both Luke and Leia are just gonna Force grab squadrons of Star Destroyers and just smash them together like giant toys, going out in a blaze of glory; not to save the “pitiful rebel band” a few minutes of escape. Sadly, nothing like that happened. Instead we get a “Force projection” Luke who does a few MATRIX moves and then the real Luke just fizzles away like a dead sparkler during the Fourth of July: pathetic.

Hey Disney, here’s an idea: if you’re just gonna kill our childhood, then at least have the balls to give these characters a substantial and dignified death.

This movie has made me very angry and I am to the point where I don’t care about what happens next or the plethora of toys and spin-off movies they come up with...all this is just to get back their $4.5 Billion. In my eyes they’re almost as bad as DC/WB; but that’s a different rant for a different post.

Grade after first viewing: C+
Grade upon further reflection: D

But that’s my two cents...
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Re: The Last Jedi Discussion Thread--SPOILERS AHEAD

Postby Idiot Savant » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:22 am

Oh yeah!

Forgot to add that the trailers even hinted at a major Jedi training Rey session and even that didn’t happen! I was expecting the typical “I’m an old man and can’t/won’t train anyone else” routine only to train her anyways because he can sense how strong she is in the Force...this movie failed me on many levels and yes, I’m a bit pissed off about it.

I don’t get passionate about politics and religion and all that “mumbo-jumbo”; just nerd stuff.
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Re: The Last Jedi Discussion Thread--SPOILERS AHEAD

Postby packerbacker180 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:51 pm

I came out of it the same way I came out of TFA. In the moment I enjoyed it, but can tell that the more times I see it, the more I think about it, the less I'll like it. I couldn't stand the Rose character. I thought she was pretty annoying. And considering the Prequels, and awful things Geoge Lucas did in the re-releases like the horrible Jabba scene added to A New Hope, I honestly think the "Carrie Poppins" scene (as I've seen it called online) may be the worst Star Wars moment ever.

Poe is pretty terrible, besides apparently raiding Han's closet upon his death, he basically disobeys an order that wipes out the majority of their fleet, then attempts a failed mutiny, and somehow by the end they're following him? How isn't he thrown in the brig, lol. I know, they don't have large enough numbers to really punish him, but through two movies he's a pretty terrible character.

Finn has spent two movies basically running from everything.

Phasma? Phasma is worse than Boba Fett now. She's supposed to be this badass leader of the Stormtroopers and she's now been punked twice by a ST washout coward.

On the plus side, I liked the interaction between Rey and Luke. I'm not sure I liked the whole, "see you around, kid" but overall I think they were well handled. I thought the backstory with Luke/Ben was pretty weak. Luke saw the good in everyone, he saw the good in Han, the good in Lando, even the good in Vader, so the thought that he was going to end him while he slept seemed waaaaaay out of character. But at the same time, the flashbacks kind of showed that he was only standing over him, and when Ben woke it startled both of them and it was sort of a misunderstanding. But in the context of Snoke corrupting Ben, I don't see how that scene is even necessary. I mean, if I thought my teacher was trying to kill me I might revolt, too. I think they could've just left off as Ben being corrupted by Snoke and betraying Luke.

I know everyone hates Kylo but I liked his development, too. I liked there was that moment where you thought maybe he was going to be redeemed. Plus, that battle scene with the guards was pretty damn cool. And then he goes a step beyond even Vader by killing his master. And yet, at the same time, he's still the petulant child that gets schooled by Luke.

Snoke? Was kind of disappointed we didn't get more of his story, but at the same time, it may've been just as disappointing as the Luke/Ben backstory, and the mystery leaves the door open for more stories. It was pointed out that in the OT we never knew much about the Emperor either. And sometimes knowing the truth isn't good. I hate that we know Wolverine's backstory, the mystery was half the fun of the character.

Rey's parents? At first I thought that was a lame reveal, but maybe it isn't the truth? Kylo could've been lying bend Rey in the hopes of turning her. In the prequels you have the Emperor do the same thing to Vader telling him he killed Padme. And in ANH you even had Obi-Wan tell Luke that Vader killed his father, and that wasn't the truth. So maybe Rey's parents are more important, or not.

But the overall story has lot's of issues. If the FO can track them through hyperspace why can't they just jump a ship in front of them and blow the Resistance up? They clearly weren't looking to take prisoners, so the whole plodding through space "car chase" was pretty weak.

Canto Bight was a waste of time in the middle kind of like the whole rathtar stuff in TFA. DJ was a lousy character. I'm curious if he'll pop up in 9, but kind of hope he doesn't.

And where the hell was Sidon Ithano????
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Re: The Last Jedi Discussion Thread--SPOILERS AHEAD

Postby secondwhiteline » Mon Jan 01, 2018 6:33 pm

Counterpoints from someone who doesn't love Star Wars but is really invested in TFA/TLJ.

1. This is a Star Wars made by someone who seems to have the same issues with Star Wars story tropes that I do, but still wants to love it, as I do.

2. This is also a film about trying to figure out which traditions to keep and which to discard.

3. The Rey Reveal: LOVED IT. No more Joseph Campbell, Chosen One crap. Not everyone is part of some elitist dynasty. Rey coming from nothing and being naturally gifted is wonderful to me. I wish we had gotten more of Rey after the throne room, but I'm assuming the next one is going to be about her redefining what being a Jedi is about.

4. Finn's plot was about learning that he can't run from things, that the First Order has created a universe-spanning system of inequality. There's nowhere to run to. He needed to actually escape somewhere to see that.

5. Kylo Ren continues to fascinate me. Honestly, for any D&D nerds here, he's probably closest to Raistlin than any other Star Wars character. This is the Anakin plot done right: an immensely powerful person with the capacity for change refuses to let go of his pain and flaws, and chooses evil.

6. Phasma: she survived the explosion of the Starkiller base, it's entirely possible she's not dead. However, she's a plot device. She's there to be the figurehead of what Finn was running from and has now decided to fight against. Him defeating her to cap off that part of his character arc makes thematic sense.

7. Snoke: he's not as important as Kylo Ren, because he made his choice a long time ago. That's one of the recurring themes of TLJ to me: the more you limit yourself in one way of thinking, the less your ability to truly affect the world around you.

8. Luke: I like where Luke ended up - he had the responsibility of rebuilding an entire way of life, but that way of life was flawed from the beginning and only when it failed did he really see that. I still think Luke is someone with a great wellspring of compassion, but his attempts to adhere to the more dogmatic aspects of the Jedi belief system (which I think actually clashed with his inherent compassion and optimism) caused him to fail Ben. As part of the larger picture, if there needs to be a new Star Wars, you can't have the original crew be saviors anymore. They did good things, but nothing is fixed forever. That's life, which is more interesting to me than myth. The Boomer generation gave us the Civil Rights movement, but they also destroyed our environment and turned into monstrous capitalists. Every generation has to figure out what the previous generation did right and screwed up. Yoda pretty much said that in his scene.

9. The Canto Bight sequence needed better editing, but was important thematically and for world-building. The First Order isn't villainous because of superlasers or anything stupid like that; they're evil because they established a way of life where the few succeed on the backs of the many. I appreciated the nature-run-amok thing they had going, but it felt unnecessary and wasn't as fist-pumping as it should've been. I got much more out of Rose saying she wanted to put a fist through the whole city.

10. DJ: another Star Wars trope destruction. Sometimes the cocky rogue isn't a secret hero, and sometimes crazy-enough-to-work plans just don't. I think he's a better comparison to Han, actually. Lando betrayed the crew in ESB because he was in a position of authority and couldn't reconcile his responsibilities with his moral framework. He's actually closer to the war profiteers on Canto Bight, except he finally made the right choice.

11. Poe: pretty straightforward here. His arc was about learning the difference between being a dashing, swashbuckling hero and an actual leader. Heroics are often pretty useless and ineffectual, especially if you come from a place where you're just attacking wildly and hoping for the best. Being a leader is about weighing your decisions, because sometimes instincts are wrong.

So honestly, I liked the film a lot. It wasn't as fun as TFA, but thematically there were a lot of layers that interested me. And honestly, I loved how relentless it was in tearing down the parts of Star Wars that don't work anymore.
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